Should a producer and/or engineer recieve points?

[smopo24]

though they are an integral part of a band's sound; if they had nothing to do with the writing process, should an engineer or producer recieve points on a record without that being stated contractually? royalties from songs? how essential is a sound to the band? REM used to credit almost everyone involved in their camp with writing, other bands have felt that way as well.....look at what has happened to the white stripes:


White Stripes get sued by studio

http://www.prosoundnews.com/articles/article_3566.shtml

White Stripes get sued by studio:

Detroit, MI (April 18, 2006)--Jim Diamond, owner of Detroit-based Ghetto Recorders, has initiated a lawsuit against The White Stripes. According to Billboard, he is demanding royalties for his work creating the band's sound as a co-producer on the act's 1999 self-titled debut, and mix engineer on its follow-up, 2000's Be Still. The suit was filed in Detroit's U.S. District Court, and a June 12 trial date is set.

Since opening its doors in 1996, recording at Ghetto Recorders has become something of a must for garage bands; the studio has hosted the likes of the Von Bondies, the Fleshtones, the Paybacks, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion, the Mooney Suzuki and the Bumpin' Uglies, among others. Recent album projects for Diamond include recording and co-producing the Pittsburgh band, Camera, as well as an album by the Brooklyn band, The Little Killers.

The White Stripes claimed in court documents that they paid Diamond $35 an hour for recording time at Ghetto.

Diamond told Billboard, "It's not just about fun and games. I understand this is a business." Meanwhile, the band's lawyer, Bert Deixler, responded, "It is a meritless case which will be defended with vigor."

[johnS]

Interesting case. It seems like a matter of contract. If the Ghetto Recorders guy signed a contract stating he gets points, then the Stripes would have to honor that agreement.

But if the question is, should a producer or engineer get royalties as a matter of intellectual property, I would think not. There is probably some legal threshold beyond which you materially contribute to the writing of the song, in which case some claim could be made to owning part of the copyright. Probably if you suggested a bunch of changes to the lyrics or a different bridge or a different chorus--and the artist accepted those changes.

But I doubt just placing the mics in the right position or getting a good level on the vocals or suggesting a different amp would give anyone a claim to own part of the song. I'm not a copyright lawyer and this is just my opinion, of course.

[Bellringer]

I think everything needs to be clear from the start. If you are looking for someone to capture your bands sound. You pay a studio and engineer to do that. They will probably make suggestions on what might help, but it's your call in the end.
If you have some rough demos and need someone to help you bring them to life, then you need more of a producer. At the time you start a relationship like this, you need to get the cost in writing.
As far as I'm concerned, there is a lot of grey area in money and music. If you feel like you are contributing more than you are getting credit for, then you need to either get your title in writing or risk not getting your due.
Even as a player, you can come in and start playing to some tracks. If something is written for you, you are just playing and will probably get an hourly rate or day rate. If you come in and someone says, "check out these tracks and see what you feel". You might want to ask at that time Am I being asked to write a part? If you are, you probably deserve more.
The system doesn't have set rules (especially if you are building a rep), So you want to get anything that could fall through on paper. You might not realize it until it's way too late and you don't get some points you deserve!

[GearJunkie]

i think he's looking for a settlement. if he doesn' get it he's gonna come forward with the HD rig they used ALL OVER that first record to get "Capn Slamalot's" drum parts in sync.

"but... i thought everything was analog and they did it all live?!"

um... listen to that album again. yeah, thanks.

[mikegee]

Originally Posted by johnS

Interesting case. It seems like a matter of contract. If the Ghetto Recorders guy signed a contract stating he gets points, then the Stripes would have to honor that agreement.

But if the question is, should a producer or engineer get royalties as a matter of intellectual property, I would think not. There is probably some legal threshold beyond which you materially contribute to the writing of the song, in which case some claim could be made to owning part of the copyright. Probably if you suggested a bunch of changes to the lyrics or a different bridge or a different chorus--and the artist accepted those changes.

But I doubt just placing the mics in the right position or getting a good level on the vocals or suggesting a different amp would give anyone a claim to own part of the song. I'm not a copyright lawyer and this is just my opinion, of course.

i agree. it's a legal issue. if the producer didnt get the points in writing with an attorney and a contract, i think its SOL for the producer. It's like, a gamble; points vs straight pay. and the gamble is to make the decision before knowing the outcome of the success or failure of the finished product. its like hindsight, its 20/20 perfect, but zippo cash

but also, if the producer did contribute significantly to the actual construction/ design/conception of the song (not remixing, changing or improving, but actual creation of the song), he could possibly sue and claim he should be a cowriter for the copyright material in question (any proof of contributions, like video of them creating, audio of them creating together, studio notes, studio journals, track notes, original lyric sheets, staff notations etc etc etc would be helpful...). he would be better off working out a co-songwriting/publishing deal with the artist in advance though. (good luck on that!) and he may not get co writer royalties, BUT he would enhance his reputation as a great studio producer, which would generate more business for him too.

ps can ya tell i always wanted to be a lawyer??? hehe

[Bellringer]

Originally Posted by GearJunkie

i think he's looking for a settlement. if he doesn' get it he's gonna come forward with the HD rig they used ALL OVER that first record to get "Capn Slamalot's" drum parts in sync.

"but... i thought everything was analog and they did it all live?!"

um... listen to that album again. yeah, thanks.

Good job scoping that one out. That's hilarious! Blackmail to keep the priceless illusion alive. They'd best play nice and kick him a few bucks. In the long run it will be cheaper than letting any studio secrets out of the bag.

[dolivas]

I don't think he has a if he didn't put in writing or confirm with them that he'd receive points on their recording for "producing" them. If that's the case then he would have to claim recompence from all the other bands he worked with in a similar manner.

To me all it smells of is a guilt-ridden quest to make up for a stupid mistake he made in the first place which is not asking for points. Unluckily for him, I would imagine the courts typically don't reward stupidity and naivete. Even if he tries to work on the angle that he sculpted their sound he would have to prove he physically forced Jack White's fingers to shred like that or he was tipping Meg White's arms as she played drums to make her play like a hobo. You literally can't sue and win because of a "sound" he supposedly helped cultivate, didn't he learn anything from the Creedence Clearwater trial?

just to add, i mean unless your name is Brian Eno, Phil Spector, Van Dyke Parks etc. etc. you don't have a case if you didn't play anything or contribute anything other than a studio for the real artist to play in.. unless you wanted points and got that in writing which he didn't.

[McLean]

As an engineer/producer myself, I get leery about doing to much for the client. With bands, they have the songs already writen (hopefully) and usually just need a place to play and get the tracks down. With some of the Hip-Hop clients and a few other clients, I noticed that since they did not have any real talent themselves, they where trying to get me to write/create the music portion of "their song". In a few cases I did do this for them. Since they where paying clients and I wrote it off as prepaid. When situations like that continued, I started telling them the deal. They looked confused and nervous when I began talking contracts and legal jargon. Than I started explaining to them about copyrights and such. I told them how easy it would be for someone to take their song and they could not do anything about it. Than explained if we continued this route of production that I could claim half or more rights to the song. This promptly got these kids off their lazy butts and came back with their own material for the next sessions. Alot of people do not understand this stuff. They think if they hold a copy of their song,or master copy, that is good in court. Than trying to say the whole "mail it to yourself" as added security. Someone needs to drop the bomb on these folks. Often I end up doing more educating in the studio than recording. Hey, It still pays though.